co-founder and his take on this. >> does the government deliver? >> copac did only can deliver. >> please. in reality we have passenger trains hemorrhaging money. >> notes node no. taxpayers paying police officers. >> they're not doing what they were hired to do. >> even defense is riddled

with waste the post office can not even close will offices civic this governor closed parts of government. >> and people in government think they are a genius. peppermint inc.. today. >> that is what we call the show but what does that mean? doing what private sector should do. health care, transportation and mail. it is faster and cheaper if they step aside and let

competitors compete. they bring in the managers' index birds suddenly they could. they are so smart. government decided to build

cars. it was a terrible car. but central planning said it was great. once the berlin wall came down and had competition it disappeared. but when government runs things, this is what we get to. allows the -- lousy product and services. we need some government. not too much. my first guest is a governor but you would be surprised how much government you did not mince. mitch daniels.

>> you will not mince real-estate vehicles and planes. not the lousy service its bid is there. >> if there are more than a couple of competitors? if somebody does this all day every day maybe they are better. then they have the incentive. john: they want money. >> i love the sarcasm -- sarcasm. john: people feel that way and another form of greed it is the human tendency to

make money which is power over other people. john: dimension property. you vis toll roads? >> yes. the patronage operation still has not paid off the bond. john: i will take care of the highway and highe supporters and friends. >> we could harvest money to build roads no barley cost. we have the best toll road. john: but it went to a foreign company. you had to fight for that. >> this is the test and the

time. there is no other way. you are for the bell or against us. john: you were on fire. you sold that. >> i get fired up the future of the state is at stake it is better use of an asset to at y s underperforming. john: now are private foreign company is more efficient? >> we distrust business, labor and government. we got rid of almost all monopolies because they overcharge and underserved.

they had every incentive to put it more lanes, told -- tolls and to keep the traffic moving faster. >> people will drive another road. they had the positive incentive. john: even after words it was not popular. 60% said it is of bad idea. we are repairing bridges the only building movement infrastructure not costing taxpayers one nickel. john: use find the right to work bill? >> that means it is the workers' decision to pay dues to the and as a condition of work.

>> i was forced at abc. york is forced but i would think that would be popular. >> about 70% that was fair. john: you did not push it. >> we had to see an opening. but the main point* the government should have is the creation of opportunity. it creates the conditions were enterprise it creates wealth. they will climb up the list for jobs investment. john: i ain't right to work is a stronger prize and the

collective vote to. nine new numbers should not be prevented. but protesters said no? >> union opponents continued the chant. >> we are sending a message they can tell us how to live and in the lead the. john: he calls you very and but i think it is the union if you are forced? >> guy vander stood it would be emotional for those who have been committed to the union movement with the compulsory dues. i understand the argument. in indiana we were waiting

90% when businesses compared more than one state but blocked from one-third of the opportunities because only one out of three go to their right to work state. now there has been a flood of business this this -- businesses. john: put up the map. all of the states around indiana are forced union. they say you are the island of freedom? >> we have pro-growth policies. john: you cut to government jobs by 21%? >> the fewest since 1975.

>> you were in bet now $1.5 billion or plus. >> we slowed down the rate of spending to half of inflation. john: you just have to slow the growth. >> the fruit haying spread below. john: also the school to a race bill. indiana and economic development it sounds like a scam of capitalism. why not get rid of the company's and lower taxes for everyone? >> we never give out cash measure on how and

expensive. we just give conditional incentives temporary tax relief. >> you have to do it to compete. to give up politician a checkbook is dangerous do anything new want to bring jobs to the state. they could be gone when the bill comes to do. you can win without doing that the seven think you governor daniels now rated number three and the most improved state not to maine court in new hampshire or north dakota. >> we are

gaining on them. >> what about housing for amtrak or the post office? ♪ [ male announcer ] how do you make 70,000 trades a second... ♪ reach one customer at a time? ♪ or help doctors turn billions of bytes of shared information... ♪ into a fifth anniversary of remission? ♪ whatever your business challenge, dell has the technology and services to help you solve it.

john: did you go to the post office website? we do. since then franklin was appointed the first postmaster the post office has grown and changed with america. patriotic. it has grown so much it loses billions of tax dollars. change for america? not so much. it is a government monopoly they don't change your innovate like president --

the president. that is in the constitution but it says they shall have the power to establish and does not say government must deliver the mail. so why are we still losing money with the mail business? make the country have been on the board six years? we're losing billions of dollars. >> note taxpayer dollars have been lost. note taxed funds go. >> where do you get the money? >> services. we do have lost and the taxpayer could be at risk. so it is correct. innovation is the hallmark. we have reduced the work

force by 250,000. it is a business. john: then you would fire workers of their is not enough for. >> granted we are like the government to be compassionate with attrition with limited flexibility. the board of governors has come up with a plan of profitability like bar coding. the first time it touches human hands is when it is delivered to seven closing at smaller offices? >> we are quasi government. no question if private enterprise a have 36,000 offices and many would be

closed. john: what is the obstacle? >> delivery schedules. we must deliver six-- per week. john: end the congressmen defend their offices? >> most republicans. we are very close to breaking even. john: that is not the same as made a profit. >> we did through 2006 when the volume of mail dropped. >> 50% decline in the last 10 years. john: get the government out. >> nobody will buy the postal service broke. john: and sell it.

>> congress will not allow that. i don't think the public will. we will operate like a business if congress will let us. >> they may. we made it passed the senate that house is considering legislation. john: this goes on years and years. not you want to keep the local office. >> of the flexible parts we make it a profitable enterprise. we have a new-product that takes eight months for approval with the regulatory commission. john: no wonder you cannot compete. sell it to a. >> and holland they made a

lot of people by the post office. is making money. >> but 90% of the post offices are closed and the public is dissatisfied. john: maybe that is what we need. >> that is the decision of congress. >> i don't disagree behalf to run like a business. john: and america i cannot even compete. >> you can put to a mailbox right next to it. >> been a body can use that it loses the aspects. >> reem a private sector competition they always have reason to have two slots.

thank you mickey barnett. what about amtrak? do you know, how much you subsidize the train?

john: another part of a government inc. is the railroad created four years ago after the senator said it is the last great hope. randal o'toole specializes.

we still have passenger trains hemorrhaging money when amtrak takeover congress believed it could pay for itself now to of rail fares. they are cheaper than the airline fares. but since then airline has dropped and air fares have gone up and the cost has gone up faster. says a these are huge. john: break it down they thought the cost would could go down and they could manage it better. they did not regula freight and the prices did go down. amtrak prices went up and freight went down. >> and they stayed the same through 1980 when we do

regulated the freight line. but on amtrak congress imposed how they have to manage their labor and run the trade, the cost went up. john: day run from new orleans to los angeles. >> average in this train. it is a desolate landscape and has the lowest writer ship with the highest cost. john: and get rid of it. >> politicians whose district it passes through. john: so $452. you could fly there cheaply plus the taxpayer pays the

subsidy $400 per ticket. quote government lovers say so do private taxpayers with plying. >> average about 1 penny per passenger mile or 27 compared to amtrak. >> why don't they privatize amtrak? >> japan did now they may make a profit, britain and privatized, for the most part they are innovative and attract came passengers faster than european although there is a small subsidy. i think we would get some passenger trains that are better than amtrak but and the father of amtrak who originally proposed it now

believes it is a mistake and they should privatize. politicians want the control so they can claim it is because you elected them. john: also trains are green? is not like cars. >> most debuts diesel locomotives they use a little bit less energy of the automobile today with their getting more efficient. the bus uses one-third as mitch energy and pollution. there are routes all over the country they provide faster frequent service at a lower fare.

john: and they don't find that clamorous. one criticism, the interstate highway system the same goal biggest government intervention you think it is the wonder. it worked with a corporate program. congress said it is funded by the users. as the money comes then we will not build it then held it comes. we design and track pay as you go but it could have forked but government funded it. to much money is the

problem. john: i ride amtrak. thank you for your subsidy. >> i ride in the megabucks. john: good for you. the much bigger part of government is defense do you know, that the brownie recipe is 26 pages long? recipe is 26 pages long? why would [ male announcer ] this is the age of knowing what you're made of. why let erectile dysfunction get in your way? talk to your doctor about viagra. ask if your heart is healthy enough for sex. do not take viagra if you take nitrates for chest pain; it may cause an unsafe drop in blood pressure. side effects include headache, flushing, upset stomach, and abnormal vision. to avoid long-term injury, seek immediate medical help for an erection lasting more than four hours. stop taking viagra and call your doctor right away if you experience a sudden decrease or loss in vision or hearing. this is the age of taking action.

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john: i complain about big government but defense is what it is supposed to do. what is defense what is empire building? doing need to spend as much as ever by a combined? yes end of the former u.s. ambassador john bolton. says -- no said dennis kucinich warning about the military industrial complex. what do you mean to much influence? >> the cost of the military takes a greater part of our

gdp. john: it is a greater amount not the greater part. >> they take an increasing amount cents 9/11 at 3.5% to. the economic effect slows employment and it is a loser with economics and it is not clear it is safe her. john: that is the question. how much safer does this make us? >> look at those divergent threats of the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction, increasing assertiveness by think back to the past when we had

missiles aimed at us we now spend more during the cold war, vietnam war, korean war, the bill but. >> look at afghanistan is right but a percentage has gone down since the cold war. even the obama administration said the cuts required by a sequestration would have the devastating effect on our defense. john: they always say that. >> the war and iraq and afghanistan could cost $5 trillion after it is added up. in addition and it has not

made us safer. irg we've safe if we are the policemen of the world? >> ambassador bull 10 you think we are? >> how can tey afford this? >> we're not talking iraq activity with intent but protect american interests. it will have us effect on the american economy. if we don't insure stability than the entire picture

darkens considerably 87 it is like the automatic pilot. >> absolutely not. we can see with the battle of sequestration dramatic cuts will occur that almost nobody republican are democrats don't want. that is not automatic. john: the "washington post" headline obama cuts defense down to the bone? there is talk. we have the inflation adjusted chart. obama false light the then flat to. how was that to the bone? anything beyond the three years is fantasy. what we talk about and then

near-term procurement, personnel, trai ning at has a devastating effect look as defense contractors announce layoffs in the hundreds of thousands john: i ain't how the navy and the marines get 29 percent, the army 26% is about the same every year and nobody makes choices. >> if you'd been there is not a vigorous debate then go to the pentagon. i'd think obviously this has to be evaluated on the annual basis and look at priorities.

with increasing uncertainties plane need more capability is. not fewer. >> i think most people are on this side of john bolton. >> we have made choices. that plus to the economic advantage. loss of jobs or gdp. racing over the globe. >> he calls these and a war of choice. i was a person who said it is aware of toys to create a terrorist.

>> you are wrong. but how would you defend america? we overthrew sadam hussain. i am happy to put defense spending but if we don't have a presence protecting the civility of commerce and finance. john:

john: the rich areas complain but i am happy to pay taxes for defense, police department. some is wasted but i did not know how much. sometime this year taxes paid people who work for their union i heard of that from clint bolick who just won the injunction. >> bree least time or officers are released from police work to do you need work full time. john: it is in the union contract pay us not to patrol but to do union work. >> negotiate against the city to ask for the pension

increase, union recruiting. been a they accept patrolling the streets. john: phoenix, arizona many test to full-time union work? >> yes. over 2,000 hours per year allocated. john: how much work could there be? >> there is no end. john: it is a slush fund. >> amounting $1 million per year to seven tax payers pay 40 -- $4 million for release time. >> we have no idea what they are doing. but not with their hired to do. >> john gage says

quality, productivity, effic iency, year after year and department after department is not possible without official time. >> i would say some bureaucrats are not better off but every hour were diverted away is a serious loss. these folks are earning the same pensions as those who are risking their lives every day. >> you are the first person to challenge? >> they unions do not publicize. it would be embarrassing.

>> but to argue against the taxpayer? >> they are paid to negotiate and in the city takes the opposite position. john: paying officers not to do the work.

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people fear them but in no corporation is as big as government. the active this said why do libertarians worry about government power? when not corporate power? govt can use force. accompany cannot force me. wal-mart must compete for bright could fire them by crossing the street to another business but only one federal government to. we cannot fire it without leaving the country. we can fire the leaders when my guys lose five must obey the command of the majority. those only have been every few years. company is have the elections every second.

if wal-mart does not service better than they lose the votes to and shrinks this is why the evil corporations do things better. msnbc edited mitt romney is words you touch the keypad this id which comes pay the cashier. it is amazing. [laughter] what is relevant and it does have a computerized way and then they sell it to less than $4. government could not do that.

sometimes i wish the soviet union was still around to warn us. the soviet union gave all kinds of products. but they were terrible. what will and gas when 10 separate leave then you had to makes it. >> there is no gas gauge. you have to check the fuel. >> this is what we get to when the government to runs things. >> i wrote to the they can't individuals succeed. groups and individuals do everything better. politicians promise they solve things but they can't. the post office tried but

then could not. individuals invented fedex and ups. they got it there overnight with a profit. the subsidized amtrak runs and loses money but megabus is profitable. despite the failures of even the military government keeps growing and the fed's employee 2 million people. they once had won the worker now there is 16. greece has 20. that is why they are broke and they have riots. we need to let the private sector boom.

this is the election year but we should celebrate the ♪ [ male announcer ] how do you make 70,000 trades a second... ♪ reach one customer at a time? ♪ or help doctors turn billions of bytes of shared information... ♪ into a fifth anniversary of remission? ♪ whatever your business challenge, dell has the technology and services to help you solve it.